As
we read some meetings ago, Corbally sustains that
“children’s literature is didactic (teaches/preaches); even the best of
children’s literature is didactic.” So, if we agree products for children are supposed to ‘teach’, what do you think they should teach? Or, the other way round: what do you think they should not teach? What topics are proper or improper when children are the target?
Join the discussion!
The topic of a children book is the product of a particular ideology an author has. The author will try to imply his idea as didactically as possible so as to sell the book and be recognised for his idea. Sometimes parents do not agree with the ideas of children´s books and the way they have to reject it is not to buy it. So, parents decide what is proper or not proper for their children . If consider that a title like ´Mom and mum are getting married´ does not affect my son´s moral, I think the idea is not harmful for my child. In this last case I am completely against the title ´mom and mum are getting married´ because I consider that topic as ´not proper´
ReplyDeleteEven though I support traditional families,I don't believe we should reject the idea of buying this type of books to children. We can not deny that lesbian and gay community have become popular and besides, some members of this community want to adopt children and bringing up them so I think, it is a good idea to introduce this theme through a nice story to our children who are not used to dealing with these kind of particular families in order to let them know in advance that there are a diversity of families in our society.
ReplyDeleteI don´t mind buying these types of books to my son. However, I must say that it isn´t my favourite topic. I really don't think that this topic is not approppriate for children, maybe it goes against our beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI partially agree with Sandra´s comment, mainly because I consider that this new families are here to stay and it is a good point that children´s literature gets ride of it.
ReplyDelete¨Mom and Mum are getting married¨ portrays a different configuration of family, which I absolutely agree is not different to a traditional one if we focus on the main porpuse of a family for a child´s life. I strongly believe that do not matter how the family is constituted, but how much love the parents, mothers or fathers can give their children.
To Alejandro: Why do you consider that the topic (let's say, lesbian marriage) is not a proper one for children? I'm just curious about your reasons for not considering it a proper topic.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mariela when she says "maybe it goes against our beliefs". It does not go against my beliefs in particular, but I undertand that she meant the whole society, and if that's the case, I agree with her. I think that, nowadays, society pretends to celebrate diversity and be open-minded, but that's just an image to be cool. Society is quite the contrary, and the topic of the book in question is not an easy topic to deal with. I think it's good to expose children to a great variety of situations so as they can recognize diversity and accept it from their early days. That will contribute to a change in society's mind.
In spite of this, I can't deny that I'm not so sure if I would use this kind of book in my class. In my opinion, the problem is not about the topic of the book, but the reaction of children's parents, and as a beginner in the teaching profession, I don't think I would take such a risk so soon. But who knows? When we think changes are necessary, we can't spend so much time thinking or talking, because only actions will make a change.
I'd also like to say that Noe's view about how a families are constituted is, in my opinion, the best definition for the term family. I mean, appart from the topic we are discussing, there are a lot of different kinds of families and we can't take for granted that every student will have a father, a mother, a brother and a sister.
I must say that I like what you have said Nico. We need to bare in mind the context in which we are going to use these type of text or topics. Sexual orientation, as well as politics and religion are taboo topics. So what to do with them? Well, we should try out ways of presenting these topics without hurting anybody's feelings. I dare to say that I would buy this book and read it to my kids (If I had one). The key here is how YOU feel about dealing with these taboo topics.
Deleteline 2 *texts
DeleteI think that any topic can be appropriate for children as long as it is connected to their own world. A story can become meaningful for kids when they can find some elements that are familiar to them; elements that, in some way or another, belong to their universe, to their real life. That is why, from my point of view, "Mom and mum are getting married" is a good way of promoting diversity among children who are sharing their daily life with different types of families. However, we always have to take into account that "what" is said in stories may be very important, but "how" it is said is not less relevant.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nico when he says that this is not an easy topic to deal with in a class. There are still some people that don't accept homosexuality. So, if we work with this kind of topics, we could get into a trouble with children's parents. In my opinion, this story contains a proper topic for kids. However, I think that parents are the ones who should read this kind of books to their children.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading all the comments that my mates have written,I can say I agree with Nico's comment. Despite his opinion, I think that the problem lies in children's addoption.
ReplyDeleteTaking into account that lesbian or gays can't have children by themselves, if they want a boy, a girl or both, they have to adopt them. As an adult woman, I can say advisedly that there are lots of couples, I mean those that are called 'traditional ones' man and woman, that want to adopt a child but the burocracy of our government doesn't do it possible. But when you watch on tv that a lesbian or gay couple adopted, I think what about the other ones? the ones that are waiting such a long time and they don't have any answer as soon as the lesbians do? Couples called 'traditional' can give love and care as the other couples do! I am not against lesbian or gays adoption, but I think should be a balance between all. Perhaps there is a balance and I don't know, but according my friends, they waste their lives waiting and waiting, in most cases, and they don't have any answer at all.
Children need to be informed about, as Nico says "a great variety of situations so as they can recognize diversity", and as Sandra says " these kind of particular families in order to let them know in advance that there are a diversity of families in our society." but at school and using a book of literature... it is a bit difficult. Not for children but yes for their parents. Talking about sexuality in the class is a difficult topic to be intoduced, imagine how difficult would be to talk about lesbian or gay marriages? As Nico says "the problem is not about the topic of the book, but the reaction of children's parents".
I agree when Nico says that only actions will make a change, but nowadays how can we make a change if society is so complicated to accept changes, all the more at school? Perhaps we have to take a risk and to teach about these changes, and hope that the consecuences aren't so bad...a grain of sand was the beginning of a dune, so if each of us as teachers teach a little, we will possibly create a more conscious society. This is my humble opinion.
Marilú, I don't think adoption is an easy matter neither for gay marriages nor for heterosexual marriages. I mean, the media exaggerates reality choosing the topics they think that are catchiest, and they only reproduce certain discouses. When the law for homosexual marriage was passed, people started to talk about gay marriages adopting children a lot, but I don't think that there are as many cases as TV would make us think.
ReplyDeleteRocío wrote, "I think that parents are the ones who should read this kind of books to their children", and although I agree with that, we all know that there are a lot of things that parents should do but they won't do them, and sometimes it will be our responsability to show children different realities.
As Mairilú very well wrote "a grain of sand was the beginning of a dune" (nice metaphor! Although I knew it in Spanish, I've never heard of it in English before). Probably the best way to deal with this kind of topics is to work in groups with our colleagues. That would be fantastic.
Thanks for your opinion Nico, I agree with you that the media exagerates reality, but according my near friends, the problem is a bit different, but after all, if each of us do something, perhaps the problem leave to be a problem and transforms itself in the solution...
DeleteI think that this is not an easy topic to deal with. I agree with Rocio when she says that parents are the problem. Most of them can't accept homosexuality but children don't care about this. Kids are tolerant and they can understand these kind of issues more naturally.
DeleteBy the way.. Im Paola
DeleteAdoption or gay marriages are not common topics to deal with in class or in our society. That where it lies the main problem. I think that we can use this kind of book, I mean, with this topics as a tool. Because, sometimes we don´t know how to express in words what we want to say or how to explain to children this kind of things. This book would help us a lot.
DeleteTo nicolas:First I never said anything against lesbian marriages. If two people love each other a lot . They must get married, I like that. In fact gay people are the most sincere people I know. If a gay person gay says” I love you” let me tell you that he or she really mean that. So, for me gay marriage is fantastic but one thing is gay marriage and another is gay marriages adopting children. That is an atrocity!!
ReplyDeleteYou say :why it was not proper for you Alejandro…It is not proper for the simple reason that it is against nature, it is insane and I just can´t believe we are discussing it. It is not proper to consider it a possible option for modern families. In my opinion, we ,as teachers,should not expose such topic to children, for many reason…To start ,as you say it,society is no ready for it. Then,Why an adopted child should bear homosexuality on his back? Suppose he or she goes to school and their classmates start mocking at him or her because he or she has two moms or two dads. Maybe the adopted child doesn´t give a damn to homosexuality but since he has been adopted by gay people he will have to face the prejudices of a society that is not ready for such phenomenon. And we are not taking into account the female and masculine images every child need to have a normal developing of his sexuality, I know you are going to say kids that have normal parents become gay but that will be her choice , an adopted child with two moms or father will be very confused. The decision of being gayhas been taken for the gay couple and it is a cruelty to put such heavy charge on a child´s back who is not ready to confront such controversial topic at short age.
For all these reasons I consider the topic´not proper´, And If we start thinking it as something proper or as a posible option for modern families we are giving the chance to consider something as ´proper´ to something which is not only harmful but confusing for children.
I´m sorry Alejandro. Why do you think gay marriages adopting is an atrocity? (using your own words)
ReplyDeleteWhat are you going to do when yo have a student that has been abused by his or her natural born mother or father? Isn´t that an atrocity? Or when you want to talk to a mother and tells you: you know what I don´t care what my child does. Isn´t that an atrocity?
I can say by experience (not my own but I do have friends in this situation) and I can tell you that their family is much more caring. loving and that they take care of their children much much better than biological parents!
Why is an atrocity to want to give a family to a child whose natural family doesn´t want him or her? And yes I use the verb "want", because sadly that´s what our society does. What we don´t want we toss it. Even children.
Excuse me and this is going to sound very rude and some people will say that is wrong and very strong.
But my opinion is that you being a teacher is the real atrocity. When we as teachers should be teaching tolerance everywhere not only in school. Every kind of tolerance.
Again I´m sorry if you think that my comment is unnecesary but it is what I think. For last I agree with Marilu and Nico 100%
Well, such an amazing debate was installed!!!!
ReplyDeleteI repeat my self ¨I consider that these new families are here to stay and it is a good point that children´s literature gets ride of it.¨ It is more than a matter of considering gay marriages adopting children an atrocity...It is an ideal way of approaching to (as Lucia said)a taboo topic.
In fact I am thinking about which topics can be presented to our children at school but I cannot think about which are not possible to be presented. I consider that the main point is the teacher´s aim, why is that type of texts introduced and how much profit we can get of it.
Literature helps us to contextualize and present topics that otherwise would be quite difficult to introduce.
I also agree with Nico, Rocío and Marilú when they said that this is not an easy topic to deal with in a class, but this and other topics like death are part of our nowadays reality and I am sure that by introducing them in our lessos, they are not going to be considered a taboo anymore.
Well, well, well I am speechless!!!! I couldn´t believe my eyes and I thought this blog would be a waste of time (a joke people, a joke). Adoption is a huge step in any family, I would like to have more flexibles laws for this, specially in our country. As you may know, in Argentina to adopt children is really a difficult task to anyone who wants to do it, and for that reason some of the couples go and get their babies not using the most appropiate way. I support gay and straight adoption. Go ahead people and adopt children who need a home,education and a lovely and caring family.
ReplyDeleteAlejandro I think that by using the word "atrocity" you have a very strong position and I think you you reconsider this opinion of yours. You need to be a bit more tolerant and open minded,after all we are in the 21 st Century!!!
I must say that as well as Sabrina I'm SPEECHLESS! Who gave us the power to say those harmful things?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean Alejandro when you say "So, for me gay marriage is fantastic but one thing is gay marriage and another is gay marriages adopting children. That is an atrocity!!" ATROCITY? Atrocity are fathers who rape their own sons or daughters, atrocity are mothers who beat their babies, atrocity is families abandoning their kids! I cant believe my eyes! I think that the one that has a lot of prejudice here is YOU. You are the one that is underestimating kids when saying that gay parents are putting on then a baggage that it's true they don't need, but common! As far as those gay couples have the tools to protect children's integrity we shouldn't be afraid of nothing. Remember that perhaps the same kind of debate happened when single mothers start raising kids right? And as Sabri said IT'S THE 21 FIRST CENTURY!
*line 4 ARE families
DeleteI couldn´t agree more with you Lu!!!!!!!!
DeleteIt seems that the group is not as open- minded as it pretends to be. I just gave my opinión about the topic and I have been attacked! No matter how open minded you are, the topic is difficult to deal with. First, as everybody said,society is not Ready to treat such matter and then you like it or not, an adopted child having two moms or two dads is against nature.like it or not these are Facts. I understand all the things my mates said about love and that this is the 21st Century and so on. I just said something a lot of people think. It´s just my opinión. I didn´t know the Group was “so” open-minded. I will take it into account next time.Then,I really apologize for having used the Word “atrocity”, I´m giving second thoughts to it and it was not “proper”.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Carolina´s comments,let me tell you, If you don´t agree with me it´s ok. But you don´t need to say that the “atrocity”will be me becoming a teacher .You don´t know how I deliver my classes,you don´t know my experience or why I want to be a teacher.It was harmful to read such comment on part of a classmate. Therefore,If I study to be in front of a class is because I truly love children and teaching,that is for sure.
With regards to your comment,How you know all gay people are good people?,who says that a gay couple is the best option for an orfan,because that is what I infer from your comment,you might know some gay copules who are good persons but that doesn´t mean they are all good. If I wrote these kind of comments is because I really think it is something shocking and you can´t deny that the entire society is not Ready to have a clear position. If the Argentinian society were as open-minded as this Group is,adoption in gay marriages would be a law. Despite the love and the openminds we ,as Argentinians, are not Ready to face it.
I'm sorry to tell you Alejandro that the thing here are the words you are using. I think you need to be more careful or at least give them a thought so as not to sound rude. When you say "against nature", can you tell me where does it say it? Who says it? Because I know that the only ones who say "against nature" are religious people (sorry for the ones that are religious one). Then I read "a lot of people think", who thinks that? As you ask me "How you know all gay people are good people?", now I ask you the same thing to you. And the what impress me the MOST is what YOU say at the beginning "In fact gay people are the most sincere people I know. If a gay person gay says” I love you” let me tell you that he or she really mean that." And by quoting you I can answer to your previews question about "How you know all gay people are good people?". Because as you said before THEY ARE THE MOST SINCERE PEOPLE. THEY REALLY MEAN WHAT THEY SAY OR DO. So dare to say that they are GOOD.
ReplyDeleteAnd YES we are open-minded the problem here are the words some people dare to use without thinking others might get hurt.
First, the less thing I want to do is to offend anybody…ok. I´ve just given “my” opinion. Then, it is “so”against nature that I don´t need to give you the sources or tell who say it. I said a “ a lot of” people because I´ve asked teachers and friends and they agreed with me. Sorry to tell you this is not the case in this group but it is a fact. Most people don´t like the idea of the children´s book. And that´s it. I already apologized for the word “atrocity” so as not to harm anybody.
ReplyDeleteI said gay “are the most sincere people when they talk about love” taking into account the context of couples. I know most gay couples that are nice but as straight ones if you involve children,anything can happen,nobody knows. Who can say that a gay couple would the best for an orfan child. As in the case of straights we have good and bad people.It doesn´t matter how open-minded you are, the topic is tough. I just saying that it could very confusing and tiresome for a child to have two dads.Am I so wrong? I respect your points of view and again I DON´T WANT TO HARM ANYBODY. But I am very sorry to tell you ,we are living in a society that is not prepare for such matter. If you have your position it´s OK and I respect that. But you like it or not the topic is not that easy.It doesn´t matter how loving a gay couple could be with a child, our society IS NOT READY yet. I am not saying it will always be this way but for the time being it is fact. The problem here is that the adopted child will face such a controversial matter,such a adult issue that I don´t think he will be able to face it. It would be super nice to live in a society in which people are really tolerant and issues like these aren´t so controversial. All in all ,if a child has really loving gay parents and he truly loves them,he will not care about what other people say and that´s it but for the time being we are not ready to face it yet. Maybe people will change their minds in the future. Who knows.
Alejandro: I really believe that you should reconsider your definition of OPEN MINDED. This group as you say is open minded, we just can´t believe what you say. That´s different. Another thing, I never said that a gay couple is the best option for an orphan, but I do believe that they are a great option. Trust me. And as Lucia says please explain to me what it is "against nature"? Is it against nature to love a child no matter what? And to give him or her everything they need? To you is natural that biological parents do what we told you before? I am a religious person, and I firmely deffend what I believe but I do not agree with some of their ideas. For example gay marriage and gay adoption. And if you say that society is not ready is because there is people that keeps thinking like you and don´t let society to move forward. If you really think society shoul change, HELP to make that change possible and maybe one day this kind of topics won´t be taboo anymore.
ReplyDeleteLittle by little I understand the point of view you have girls.It is right if a gay couple gives everything an orfan child needs .it´s super nice and there is a lot of love there and who cares about what other people think. The problem is that it is super tough and maybe my reaction is part of what most of people think in our society. I still don´t like the idea of a kid having two dads and I still believe it will be confusing for a child to have two dads.But if a couple gives love to a child who really needs it ,that is also super cool.It is difficult.It is extremely difficult for me to swalloww it. but I respect your idea.
DeleteTo Carolina: Since I don't have an admistrator who writes my personal thoughts on the blog yet, the personal pronoun 'WE' just can´t believe what you say... should be changed to the first person I.Thank you
Delete´To Julio: you lost my by putting the thing about the administrator........I just didn´t get it. About the personal pronoun we, I won´t change it because I meant to use it. I´m not talking just about me. Maybe you can read some previous comments to mine and you will understand.
DeleteTo carolina:Although your last comment is very confusing,I think I understand what you mean.you don´t understand the thing about "the administrator".What julio wanted to say is easy...there is not an admisnistrator who controls or represents the thoughts of all the classmates. So, If you use the pronoun "we",it can be inferred that you speak in behalf of the whole group. And that it´s wrong, since you never asked julio whether he agreed with you. Julio suggets that you should change"we" for "I" or you can also say most of us.You are not representing him in the discussion.Remember the last class about the inclusive "we"?If you read carefully his comment ,he is neutral and he doesn´t stand in any side.
DeleteWhat topics are proper or improper when children are the target?
ReplyDeleteI believe that any topic can be discussed or presented in the classroom if the teacher has the right preparation. Probably any adult can talk about homosexuality or gay marriages but do it in a classroom and properly is very different. I think 90% of Argentine teachers don't have the right preparation to deal with “Mom and Mum are getting married” that's why I consider this topic should be avoided in the Argentine classrooms. In a society where there are so many narrow-minded people around to talk about lesbian marriages in the classroom will probably created an unexpected problem to teachers such as: parents' reactions as Nicolas said in a comment.
From my point of view, to avoid a topic is not the same to hide a topic. In the classroom teachers can talk about many topics for instance :How tolerate and respect others' opinions.
At home reading “Mom and Mum are getting married” it's a matter of choice, parents can read their children whatever they want as best as they can.That's what a I think.
I would like to say something about the last comments, I think that Alejandro has the right to say or believe whatever he wants,and Noone can say he is wrong, we , as adults , should learn to be a bit more tolerant and respect others' opinions. The new Pope is against gay marriages or even worse homesexuality is considered a mental illness by Mauricio Macri, if we take into account the opinions of those greatest thinkers of the modern era, the discussion is over and who tells them they are wrong,on the contrary, many love them. I'm not afraid of the 'tremendous and monstrous atrocities' that Alejandro can probably write, the media shows us real atrocities everyday and everyone seems to be happy.Julio Servin.
First, the less thing I want to do is to offend anybody…ok. I´ve just given “my” opinion. Then, it is “so”against nature that I don´t need to give you the sources or tell who say it. I said a “ a lot of” people because I´ve asked teachers and friends and they agreed with me. Sorry to tell you this is not the case in this group but it is a fact. Most people don´t like the idea of the children´s book. And that´s it. I already apologized for the word “atrocity” so as not to harm anybody.
ReplyDeleteI said gay “are the most sincere people when they talk about love” taking into account the context of couples. I know most gay couples that are nice but as straight ones if you involve children,anything can happen,nobody knows. Who can say that a gay couple would the best for an orfan child. As in the case of straights we have good and bad people.It doesn´t matter how open-minded you are, the topic is tough. I just saying that it could very confusing and tiresome for a child to have two dads.Am I so wrong? I respect your points of view and again I DON´T WANT TO HARM ANYBODY. But I am very sorry to tell you ,we are living in a society that is not prepare for such matter. If you have your position it´s OK and I respect that. But you like it or not the topic is not that easy.It doesn´t matter how loving a gay couple could be with a child, our society IS NOT READY yet. I am not saying it will always be this way but for the time being it is fact. The problem here is that the adopted child will face such a controversial matter,such a adult issue that I don´t think he will be able to face it. It would be super nice to live in a society in which people are really tolerant and issues like these aren´t so controversial. All in all ,if a child has really loving gay parents and he truly loves them,he will not care about what other people say and that´s it but for the time being we are not ready to face it yet. Maybe people will change their minds in the future. Who knows.
To Alejandro: I've never said that you were against lesbian marriages neither, but you have said something really interesting. The fact that an adopted child will be mocked at school because of his/her parents. I don't consider adoption by gay marriages an atrocity, but we should take into account what you've just said either way if we agree, or if we don't. As I said before, society pretends to be a new society, and in fact, that's a lie. We're really conservative, and we never agree with big changes. This would be a really big one, and if we wait society to be ready, probably we will die waiting. I apply this king of logic to any topic that implies big changes, and we're here to change things for the better.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I would give a thought to the idea that homosexuality is "against nature". Think that both terms, heterosexuality and homosexuality, were first used in the 19th century by psychologists to distinguish a "normal person" from a sick one. Think about the big changes in society in that time. There was a need to impose a "normal family" with a clear hierarchical division: first the father, then the mother and children at the end. That was normal. Nowadays, it's neither that normal nor that natural because of the so-called dysfunctional families. Well, I will stop here because this will lead to a long long discussion and we will be lost in the main topic of the discussion. But please, do think about it.
To everyone: please people try to be respectful with the things you don't agree with. The idea is that all of us should expose our ideas. If we start accusing somebody for not having the same point of view, that person will stop expressing him/herself freely, and that will be something sad, especially because we won't be able to put ourselves in somebody else's shoes.
Many people have argued that our society is not ready for this book. However, I consider that the main purpose of the book is to get our society ready and tolerant to these families. As Noe said, they are here to stay; and therefore, we need to welcome them. The same way we teach our students to appreciate ethnic differences, we should teach them to understand family differences. Mom and Mum are geting married, could be used as a tool for that intention.
ReplyDeleteFrom my point of view, the fact that we need an ovum and a sperma to be conceived does not imply that it is a "natural rule" to be raised by a female and a male person; it neither implies that being raised by two people of the same sex goes against nature. I believe that this is rather a social matter. The problem here is that our society is so complex (and still growing in complexity) that we can't even understand it.
Maybe we cannot change our society now, but we can certainly change the future; and reading this type of books to our children could be the beggining of that evolution. We should start getting ready!
To Alejandro or to whoever felt hurt, I understand your point of view and it's great that you were able to express and open the channel for a great debate but as I said before careful with the words you used. Remember that words are not JUST words, they convey a hidden meaning that people may misunderstood and that probably would lead to an argument you don't want. I recognized that our society is not SO open-minded but little by little citizens of a society should start making the difference.
ReplyDeleteI read in one's comment that this is a great tool I agree with that. But again we as teachers should be taught how to deal with these topics.
One last thing to everyone: What would you do if a student in your classroom has got same sex parents? What would you say if other pupils bully that student?
Please remember that the main idea of these was to be able to defend our ideas and to express them. I dare to say that all in all we are having fun =D
*misuderstand
DeleteTo carolina:Although your last comment is very confusing,I think I understand what you mean.you don´t understand the thing about "the administrator".What julio wanted to say is easy...there is not an admisnistrator who controls or represents the thoughts of all the classmates. So, If you use the pronoun "we",it can be inferred that you speak in behalf of the whole group. And that it´s wrong, since you never asked julio whether he agreed with you. Julio suggets that you should change"we" for "I" or you can also say most of us.You are not representing him in the discussion.Remember the last class about the inclusive "we"?If you read carefully his comment ,he is neutral and he doesn´t stand in any side.
ReplyDeleteExcellent comparison with the inclusive/exclusive Deixis taken from the exposition of the girls. Probably my comment was not enough clear but the main idea I think it was understandable.
Delete